Healing Chronic Pain: The Hidden Link Between Trauma and the Body
In this insightful interview, Andrew Gill, LPC, shares his unique approach to counseling clients with chronic pain, emphasizing the profound intersection between physical suffering and mental health. Drawing from years of experience, Gill highlights how anxiety, depression, and even trauma often accompany long-term physical pain, especially in patients navigating fragmented and impersonal medical systems. He advocates for a holistic framework that includes somatic therapy, mindfulness, and motivational interviewing—tools designed to address not just a client’s thoughts but their embodied emotional experience. His approach encourages clients to reconnect with their bodies, unpack self-critical narratives, and build compassionate self-awareness that fosters healing.
Gill also speaks candidly about how he handles the emotional toll of working with chronically ill clients, emphasizing the importance of boundaries and self-care for both therapists and advocates. He stresses that clinicians and patient advocates alike must learn to be “responsible to” clients, not “responsible for” them—an essential mindset when dealing with cases involving complex emotional and medical dynamics. With humility and clarity, he offers practical advice on how to assess clients’ needs, advocate effectively within disjointed healthcare systems, and preserve one’s own emotional well-being in the process. His commitment to serving underrepresented populations, including those on Medicaid, reflects his deeply rooted values and the belief that healing is not only possible but also a communal responsibility.
***Resources & Links Mentioned
Andrew Gill’s Contact Info:
🔗 Website: www.tauhealingservices.com
📧 Email: tauhealing@gmail.com
***Therapy & Clinical Resources Mentioned
Motivational Interviewing
Developed by Dr. William R. Miller — a client-centered, directive method for enhancing intrinsic motivation to change.
Somatic Therapy
Body-focused therapeutic approach addressing the mind-body connection in trauma and chronic pain.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)
Traditional cognitive model often used as a baseline contrast to somatic and integrative approaches.
Emotion-Focused Therapy (EFT)
Mentioned as a component within some CBT frameworks; emotion-centered work in psychotherapy.
Mindfulness & Body Scanning
Practices to reconnect with the physical self and build emotional regulation.
***Books & Authors Referenced:
“The Body Keeps the Score” by Bessel van der Kolk
Seminal work on trauma, memory, and somatic healing.
“Boundaries” by Dr. Henry Cloud & Dr. John Townsend
Recommended for advocates and clinicians navigating emotional limits in caregiving roles.
Edith Stein (St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross)
Referenced for her writings on empathy and embodiment in therapeutic relationships.
***Clinical Directories & Tools:
Psychology Today Therapist Directory
www.psychologytoday.com
Use filters to find therapists who specialize in chronic pain, trauma, and who accept Medicaid or specific insurance.
***Transcript:
Host:
Andrew Gill, thank you so much for joining us. I read through a lot of your background before we started and obviously this is an area that I'm incredibly excited to talk about and I know a lot of the people listening, a of the advocates listening can use some more information. You kind of, as a licensed professional counselor, you kind of sit with people who one of your specialties is dealing with chronic pain, is that right?
Andrew Gill:
Thank you.
Andrew Gill:
Yes, so I've had several clients with chronic pain issues and being able to make applications for therapeutic intervention, kind of assessing the situations, even walking with them through hospital situations, triaging different needs in context of body, mind, and even spirit has been something that I've done throughout my career.
Host:
How'd you get into this kind of specialty or this population? Cause it's not so common for counselors to kind of be in this area.
Andrew Gill:
Well, I would say, Jon, that it came to me. I'm very open when it comes to my invitation of clients. So I take all kinds of different people into my practice. And this specialty kind of came from learning from what came my way. So it was actually an interesting adventure to experience that. And I would say also being on insurance panels helps.
because the referrals will come from, like, I have different panels from commercial to traditional Medicaid as a provider. so folks are struggling. so chronic pain issues do come up. There's got like a lot of mental health and chronic pain. We've got like 35%, 40 % that can be intertwined.
Host:
So say that again, 35 to 40 % of people with mental, with chronic pain suffer from mental health issues. And how does that manifest? What kind of issues are you seeing typically?
Andrew Gill:
chronic pain.
Andrew Gill:
Yes.
Andrew Gill:
Well, it ranges, but predominantly there's a lot of anxiety, a lot of like stress, very anxious because you don't know what the body's doing. And then, you know, a lot of abilities have been taken away, you know, in the process of chronic issues, but, know, it's different medical issues that are occurring or pain. And in those situations, it can be very depressing, you know, with a loss and the grief from all the limitations that come with it.
And the life that I had and the life that I have now, there's a lot of adjustment in that process that makes it very demoralizing. And then you deal with the medical system that we have, which is also very frustrating with this. It's very specialized and all these people don't talk to each other. And they also don't know about the special issues that go along with certain chronic conditions.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
And so it makes it very complicated. so I think that all those things, anxiety, depression, know, trauma, a lot of people are traumatized by even their medical experiences, not being heard, not listened to.
Host:
Yeah, the empathy component there where people, I mean, you you're kind of rushing people in and out of a hospital at 15 minute intervals with doctors. And so it's difficult to feel like anybody actually cares, I'd imagine.
Andrew Gill:
Well, you know, I think that it's kind of a challenging thing based on my experience with, you know, working with clients that are going in and out of hospitals is that some, nurses are really caring, but they may not have the right medical knowledge about the condition. And so they misunderstand it. And some of the system issues a lot of times, it's not even like that the nurse nurses may not care. It may be that, you know, the nurses aren't able to like understand what's going on and they
handle things in a certain procedure in the hospital. And so they become very focused on, I don't wanna not follow my procedure, but they don't realize that these may be special situations that need the doctor's guidance or do I need to call someone else or do I even need to call an advocate of this person and understand what's happening with them.
Host:
Let's talk about the way you work for a second. I mean, you brought up a lot of good points and I just, you know, knowing what I know about working with...
people in the room on the couch, you know, per se, even though I realize a lot of it has become telehealth these days. You know, you're you you kind of have a very holistic approach you use kind of body issues with somatic therapy, kind of the gold standard that I've I'm familiar with that people kind of learn as a psychotherapist is cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. Why does that why do you feel that falls short and what
do these other kind of modalities bring to the table that help people?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, sorry, did you cut out there? Okay. So I think that the best way to understand is that we're not just dealing with like beliefs about ourselves or just cognitions. We're not just an intellect. You know, we have an emotional system. know, CVT does have a framework for emotion focus therapy, if you're familiar with that.
But we also need to understand that when there's medical issues involved, we're talking about limitations of the body. When we're talking about pain, we're talking about pain receptors. We're talking about a physiological system that is interconnected with our brains. So it's not just going to be a matter of changing our thoughts about things. It's also going to be talking about like, well, how are we holding our emotions in our body?
And how can we be more aware of the experiences that we're having? Very common for chronic pain or chronic conditions that we dissociate. We check out. We don't want to deal with our bodies. And so this somatic therapy is in somatic approaches, body awareness, including relaxation exercises and just really mindfulness strategies.
really being in tune with what's happening in and checking in with body scans are just so important for this population. doing cognitive therapy, just telling a person what they need to think is very dismissive. And it basically undermines their whole experience. Instead of integrating the somatic with the cognitions, So being able to start kind of like bottom up.
Host:
Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
so to speak, being able to be in tune with the experiential aspects of what's going on with the person and then moving towards shifting of mindsets or perspectives.
Host:
I like the way you said bottom up. makes me think, I've had a lot of people tell me that, you know, most intellectuals that you meet live from the neck up, which I've never completely identified with, but it makes sense if you're, if that's who you are and you're seeing someone right in front of you, you're gonna deal with the neck up and that just isn't the whole picture.
Andrew Gill:
No, it's not. Yeah, I agree with you.
Host:
So what kind of other than somatic work, and you've kind of talked about for people who aren't aware somatic meaning in the body, right? So body work. you talked about relaxation exercises and mindfulness other than that somatic work. What other tools do you find helpful for this type of population that you work with?
Andrew Gill:
So, well, I'm trained in motivational interviewing, is, Miller was the one that developed this technique in New Mexico. this motivational interviewing was predominantly used initially for substance abuse users, but it was also used for the medical profession, which was really interesting. So just for any kind of medical condition.
So I think motivational interviewing is a strategy, you know, which by the way, I was trained by Miller. And so I've been able to integrate that motivational interviewing approach to engage people. essentially, the fundamentals are this that you want to be able to meet people where they are, you want to listen to them. And, you know, motivational interviewing has a very person centered approach towards it. And, you know, people feel overwhelmed.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
There's a lot of different things that come at them and they don't want to be solution-focused therapy, for example, be a little bit too much. It's like, kind of overwhelms a person with all the solutions. They've been told what to do. And so I think that motivational interviewing backs it up a little bit and is being present with the person, meeting them where they are. It also is very accepting of the ambivalence.
Host:
Right.
Andrew Gill:
of these situations. When we talk about ambivalence, we're talking about filling two ways about it. I want to do the treatment, I don't want to do the treatment. I want to take my medication, I don't want to take my medication. I want to go to the doctor, I don't want to go to doctor. I want to eat well, I don't want to eat well. These are all the ways that people fill. And being able to sit with a person with that ambivalence is really essential to let them explore that and help them to be able to build their own self-efficacy.
Host:
Walk us through what motivational interviewing looks like, what it sounds like. Everybody understands both components of the title, motivational interviewing, but unless you've actually sat through it, I think it's a little bit kind of muddy and murky. What does it actually look like in practice?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, so it is a little bit involved and you know, probably, you know, could be worth another podcast, I'm sure. So but open ended questions instead of closed ended questions is a fundamental concept of technique. What would be most helpful for you right now for me to, you know, talk about motivational interviewing? Right. So that's an open ended question. What's a reflective listening with, you know, emotional attunement, for example?
Host:
Okay.
Andrew Gill:
You know, Jon, you really want to know about motivational interviewing. That's something that interests you. And you can see how that would be helpful to, you know, chronic pain. You know, people that are in chronic conditions or chronic pain. That's reflective listening. You know, like there's also this element of, you know, rolling with resistance when, you know, you know, there's those moments when I don't want to do something good for myself. You know, I'm overwhelmed and distressed and I'm just fed up.
And you're really struggling right now. This is really difficult for you. Jon, you're having a hard time understanding motivational interviewing right now. So that's rolling with the resistance. And then you're listening change talk. You're wanting to help a person to be able to move towards that healthy behavior change. Jon, you're really thinking about wanting to use motivational interviewing in your own practice.
you know, you're really wanting to implement this with some of your clients.
Host:
Got it. So there's a lot of that empathy and validation to make the person feel seen and heard. And then there's kind of that gentle nudge that comes in as an undercurrent once there's kind of that connection between the two of you. Is that sound right?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's really essential. You want to build that rapport and that empathy with these strategies. So, you know, they're intertwined where you're, you know, the spirit of motivational interviewing is that, right? That, you know, you're not just like, you know, trying to shift people to change, but you're really being present with them and really empathizing with the struggles that they're going through.
Host:
So fascinating. kind of, do your clients come in with goals in mind or are they just at a loss and they don't even know where to start? What does it sound like when you first meet a client?
Andrew Gill:
Jon, I like your question. I've supervised a lot of clinicians and that question's been asked a lot of times of what do I do my intake with them and what do I do in the first session with a client? And from a motivational and reviewing perspective, I typically defer a lot of my judgment in my first session. I usually don't go over a lot of information, unlike what they suggest. I actually sit with them and I hear what's really going on with you.
Can I just be present with you and what's happening? kind of like reflectively listen and be present. And then from that place, come up with what their presenting issues are and how to engage with them. And I think that's true for advocates too. They want to be able to get into that position of just listening and not necessarily come with an agenda, right? But be present to the person and be able to like,
Edith Stein says this, she says, you know, we truly are able to empathize with the other when we have an experience of the other as an embodied person. Okay. And so when we can encounter that person fully as they are, we can truly empathize with their experiences and also suffer with them. know, counseling is suffering, advocacy is suffering, you know, but there's meaning in that suffering.
And so, you when we're really being good helpers, our advocates, you know, you know, we are engaging with that process of, you know, enduring people's sufferings with them.
Host:
how do you handle all the suffering for people who don't do this work? Because it sounds intimidating, right? If I were to go up to somebody on the street and they say, do do for a living? I suffer with clients, right? If you were to sum it up that way, I know there's much more to it. But how do you handle that on your end? Because a lot of advocates who aren't trained in the mental health space, but find themselves sitting.
in this uncomfortable place with their clients, I'm sure the toll is quite high. And maybe there's some advice you can offer to the advocates who might be listening.
Andrew Gill:
Jon, I want to tell you this. When I started off my career, I worked in a drug and alcohol rehab. early on in my career, it was very difficult to differentiate the boundaries. It really helped me to understand the feeling responsible or not feeling responsible. So I think that that's something, especially for addicts that are out in addiction processes, that they're struggling. And the rates are really low for recovery for addiction.
You get about 30 % sometimes, and you get about 70%. It doesn't matter what you do, sometimes it just are gonna go out and use. So you learn really quick about how to shift out of some degrees of responsibility for people's behaviors. So that's the fundamental thing is I'm not responsible for other people's behaviors. As a helper, I'm responsible to a person. And then have good book boundaries.
Host:
Yeah.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Host:
Right.
Andrew Gill:
Townsend and more I think is, know, taught us those kinds of things. So I would recommend that book for any advocate, by the way, because it would give context for that. But I think for me personally, how do I manage, know, well, first of all, I want to say when I'm dealing with chronic conditions or chronic pain clients, it is another ball game. It is different than my other clients. It is more intense. It involves them and being in hospitals a lot.
Host:
Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
and it is hard work to ebb and flow with it. I will say this, that I am going to go out of my way to talk to hospitals. So I'm going to be a good collaborator that may, you I'm going to be in crisis more, right? So I've kind of taken that as something that is going to be part of the job when I work with this population. So it's an acceptance. think that's really helpful to know is there's certain degree of acceptance that I know that that's part of it if I'm going to work with this population.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
But the way that I take care of myself is that I really turn off. After I deal with a crisis or after I deal with a case where I'm working through some somatic work, where it's really distressful with the person, work through some shame, work through some trauma, I'm going to turn off after I get off work. I'm not going to allow myself to spend time on the case in my brain.
Host:
think that's a important lesson for not just advocates, but a lot of nurses as well. You they don't spend a lot of time training how to keep those boundaries intact in the mental health profession, which is why you see so many surgeons and doctors and everybody who also struggle in their own way. It's an often in silence. But yeah, we don't talk about it enough how the advocates need to understand that those boundaries need to be created that are comfortable for you. And I like the way you...
The way you kind of reminded us responsible to a person, not for a person, is a key part of that. Talk to me about what you wish advocates knew about chronic pain and mental health and how you wish they would approach it maybe a little more often.
Andrew Gill:
Yes, so I think, you know, early in my career, you know, worked with a woman named Dr. Benish and she taught me, you know, the first thing that you do in general is assessment, assessment, assessment. So if you don't have a really good assessment of the situation or assessment of the needs of the person, then it's really you're not going to make good interventions or advocate appropriately. So I think the recognition point here is you really want to understand the assessment.
of the situation first before you proceed into the next step. I think it's important also to realize that there's this interplay that we have with mental health and chronic conditions. And I think we can't generalize. It's very unique to the person. And so I think that this is really important point for advocates to understand that when you don't want to label or get into generalizations of any given person or any given condition because
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
All of them are special. And I think it's not just mental health and it's not just mental conditions. And sometimes I've had doctors say, it's just psychological and it's not, it's actually a medical issue. Or sometimes it's a medical issue, know, or a psychological issue and they're not taking that in consideration when they're thinking about how it's impacting the body, right? And so I think you don't want to...
you don't want to get into like this like, you know, dichotomy of just labeling things and generalizing things into like these categories. You do want to keep it together, right? And understand that it is complex, you know? And having said that, you also want to keep it simple. You know, one of things that I recommend, was also studied under Dr. Benish, organizational psychology. So, and one of the things that was fundamental to understanding is like, you've got to understand systems. You know, we have a very,
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
very difficult medical system today in America. I spent some time in Brazil one time. I was at a wedding early in my career. And in this hospital, they had a social worker, they had the doctor, the nurse practitioner, the nutritionist, the counselor, and the social, all these collaborating together in one system for one client. And I was like,
That was an amazing encounter to experience a comprehensive system that covers all their bases. Very integrative, very interwoven. Our systems are not like that. And it's important to understand that that is the way it is. It's not the way that it could ideally be. But this is what we are dealing with. And so we've got to work within that system and educate certain people on the advocacy to educate on what's happening. And I've seen
you know, advocates that you're associated with do really good job of that, of saying, look, I'm filling in the gaps for you. You don't know what you're talking about. This is what's happening with this person. You know, like, please listen to the client. The client's telling you something very important. So I think it's important to keep it simple as well when you're working in these systems to understand that you do have a say and you know, that the client does have a voice.
Host:
Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
And as complex as it is, you can be effective by being a voice for them.
Host:
Yeah, there's advocates that kind of have stepped up and one of their primary roles is that coordination of care that's missing in America. And that's really, they're just quarterbacking the different specialists and mental health and social workers that you, because there isn't a lot of vertical integration in that respect. And you're right, it is complicated. You know, one of the things you talked about in terms of assessing and how everybody's unique, I think it's a great point.
If a new advocate is listening to that though, I feel like it might be overwhelming, right? At this point in your career, it might be intuitive, right? I'm gonna assess for this, I'm gonna assess for that. But if you're starting out, how do you know you're assessing the right places? Do you use a checklist in your mind or kind of a rough checklist? How do you go about doing that?
Andrew Gill:
Jon, I think you're absolutely right. think in general, assessment is very overwhelming because there's so much information. I'll just say this, that when I started my career, just like you mentioned earlier, clinicians are not always trained really well. And a lot of times you learn on the spot. And I think that that's also the case for advocates. They're doing a lot of learning about people's experiences on the spot. And so I think that what I mean by assessment is
being able to understand what the client is communicating and also referencing what you already know. And so you can only assess within the scope that you know. And that's okay, you're not gonna know everything. The heart of this is that you are advocating. And so I think that you can take back the overwhelming feeling by realizing that there are things that you can do even if you can't do it all.
Host:
Yeah, it's a great point. Can we go back to somatic therapy for a second? I have a couple kind of, you know, it's not so, it's not so widely adopted here. You know, we're definitely making strides, people like Bessel van der Kolk or, you know, writing books and trying to explain how the body does keep score of trauma and whatnot. Why do you think we're so slow, especially here in the West to kind of adopt this somatic?
kind of framework and paying attention to the body, especially in the context of suffering and pain and what are normally looked at as mental issues.
Andrew Gill:
I mean, you've probably asked a question that we all would like to know. think I think it's a you know, know, ideas have consequences. I think that fundamentally, we started in the world of psychology with a lot of like, cognitive therapy, especially in America. You know, when, know, psychology was developing, there was a lot of we call it
Host:
Hahaha
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
Now, like negative psychology, where it was symptom focus, it was very oriented towards the problem. Okay. And then we see some more like, you know, when we're thinking about, let's discover the problem, then you think through the solution. Right. And so I think the, you know, early stages of American psychology was very oriented towards that model of finding out what's wrong with the symptoms. Let's correct the symptoms. Let's figure this out and problem solve.
I think we've moved towards more Vander Kolk and the body keeps the score. We've EMDR therapies, somatic therapies. We've moved more towards that alongside of what's called positive psychology. Positive psychology is more personalistic. It's more oriented towards integration of the whole person. We're not just looking at the thoughts and energy does follow thought. So there can be results from that.
But there's much more to the story of how we hold emotions in our body, how body memories work. And also, you know, this, you know, we are so cerebral in this, this technocratic society that we're in. Everybody's on a screen. Everybody's analytical. And, you know, this heart, mind-heart connection.
that we hear so much about that we need to allow our thoughts and our heart to connect. Well, that connects in an embodied self in a sense of that. And I like to reference again, Edith Stein. Edith Stein talks a lot about empathy and she makes reference to the fact that until we have an experience of empathizing with our own bodies, we can't truly empathize with other people.
And I think the somatic worth is so important because not only are being aware of what's happening with your body, the sensations in your body, the feelings that you're having, they also tell you your needs. Right? You know, I'm hungry, right? When I know that I'm hungry, I'm in tune with my body, I eat. Right? On the basic level, you know, this also works psychologically. You know, if I'm feeling alone, that tells me I want to belong, you know?
Andrew Gill:
There are different things that are going to, when we reference our bodies, they tell us something about ourselves. And that's really important, especially as it pertains to when you're in a chronic condition or chronic pain. mean, look, my clients suffer in this way. Oftentimes it's hard to even access that. I don't even, I almost want to get rid of my body because I'm sick of it, right?
But being in tune with it and being able to accept your body as it is is so key to being able to be an acceptance of yourself.
Host:
What kind of transformations do you see sometimes when you do this work with your clients? Is there a sense of acceptance? Is there a way to cope with the pain more? Is there more of an awareness? I know it's not going to be a one size fits all, but what kind of impact have you found your clients having as a result of embracing these approaches?
Andrew Gill:
Well, you know, I think number one, there's a lot of like what I would call imposed narratives that people have. Okay. So I think that there's what I mean by that is there's, there's typically like, you know, I'm a failure and because I'm a failure, I'm not going to bother with taking care of myself. Okay. That's an imposed narrative. Okay. So I think that there's a lot of like those kinds of patterns that people have developed.
Host:
Yeah.
Host:
Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
either socially, interpersonally, or personally. And so I like to deconstruct those and be able to help a person to come to the realization that there's a need for self-compassion here. Let's remove the critical self. Let's shift to a compassionate mode towards your body, towards you as a person. And then let's also survey, again, that awareness, like you said, awareness of the body.
awareness of the needs that we have and how to meet those needs in a healthy way. Right. And a big piece of this, the transformation that I see is like, want to see the gradual, you know, number one, we want the mental health symptoms to go down so that we can reduce their impact on the body. Because the more anxious you are, the more you're going to have, you know, severity of conditions, you know, physically. Right. Because that mental stuff will impact the physical.
So that I want to see that, you if that's treated, then we're going to see a reduction in the physical symptoms. And that means less hospital visits, right? Yeah, you know, always excited when there's less hospital visits. Okay.
Host:
Sure, even the hospital will be excited when there's less hospital visits.
Andrew Gill:
That's great too, right? But overall, like what you said about, you know, being aware of oneself, being able to unscript those things, script healthy things into place, acceptance of self. And also, I love the support systems for chronic conditions. I love these groups. I want these groups to thrive. I want these, you know, people to feel like they connect with other people that are suffering the way they are. Why? Because that builds meaning, builds purpose.
It builds like, you know, these people understand me. These people, you know, I want them to feel that. I want them to be able to feel like they're not alone in this suffering and that they can live a healthy life still with it.
Host:
Yeah, we see that a lot even with who becomes an advocate, right? A lot of people become advocates after their parent or their child or a loved one becomes sick or has an accident that's traumatic. And then in becoming an advocate, that suffering has an elevated sense of meaning and purpose that drives them. And they're able to help. I mean, so many people as a result, as well as healing the broken part of their kind of soul that hurts from their own loss.
Andrew Gill:
That's right.
Absolutely.
Host:
In your talking to clients who are kind of in and out of the hospitals, are you seeing things that are happening in the hospitals where you're like, wish they could get this fixed. I know that we talked about the splintering of the medical system and how it's kind of just kind of spread out across different fields that just don't talk to each other. Is there anything else that you're like, man, if they could fix this, my life as a clinician would be much easier.
Andrew Gill:
Well, I mean, it's a loaded question. There's multiple factors that play into our system again. I think at this point, I'm really in acceptance of the fact that the system is the way it is. So I don't expect a good service. I expect a bad service for my clients. And that may be sad, but I have an acceptance that they're going to go into a bad, they're going to be misdiagnosed, they're going to be misunderstood, and they're not going to be hurt.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
And that's unfortunate that I have that attitude towards the system, but it's kind of helped me a lot to be able to say, okay, this is the baseline. I don't go in with the expectation that they're actually going to do their job. I don't go into the expectation that they're actually going to be giving the right treatment even. Now, it's always surprising when it does and I give them credit for when that occurs. I'm like, yay, that's wonderful. But I kind of go in with the baseline of they're not going to do their job. And I'm not cynical about it though.
Host:
Right.
Andrew Gill:
I really do have a disposition that, these are teaching opportunities for these professionals. These are ways in which there can be clarification. But I will say the biggest barrier that I've found, I've called into hospitals and I've said, I am their licensed professional counselor. They have me on file. Can I talk to the doctor or the nurse practitioner? I go ahead and assert my authority as a licensed professional counselor or.
Host:
Right.
Andrew Gill:
And I know the advocates can always do that, you know, but I do. I just go in there and I say, look, this is not not what you're dealing with. This is the situation. This is the diagnosis. You know, this is what my client is telling me. Can you clarify? And I seek clarification is the approach that I take with these systems. Now, I also give them credit for the things they do. I'm like, thank you so much for what you're doing for my client. I really appreciate that. But I think that that that kind of disposition of just understanding that a lot of people don't know.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
And they certainly aren't gonna know the mental health piece. And they may not know the nuances of the medical condition, especially when it's a very sophisticated medical condition.
Host:
Right.
Host:
Right, Yeah, it's, you I heard, kind of plucked out two things of what you just said. One is there's this accepted sense of pessimism. And I had a friend who told me once, the good thing about being a pessimist is you're either always right or pleasantly surprised. And you kind of embodied that really well. But the other part was like, look, the doctors and the nurses and the staff at the hospital.
you know, leading leading with a little bit of a smile and a little bit of warmth doesn't hurt. They you know, they have a hard job too. And even though they're not doing it, you know, perfectly, a little bit of gratitude goes a long way to try to get everybody on the same page and asking for clarity instead of offering criticism is going to get you much further every time.
Andrew Gill:
Absolutely.
That's right.
Andrew Gill:
Yes.
Absolutely, unless sometimes you do benefit from being obnoxious.
Host:
When do you find, is there like a line that gets crossed somewhere in your head where you're like, okay, now I get to be a pain in the butt.
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, I think it's the point when I notice that they're not listening to me either. You know, when they're just following a procedure, but they're not seeing the exception to the rule. And then I play my cards. I play my cards in those instances that I can report them and that I know things that they don't know and that works to their disadvantage. And then all of sudden they start calling the doctor.
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Gotcha.
Host:
Right.
Host:
Surprise, surprise.
Andrew Gill:
I'm like, oh, All of sudden I'm talking to the doctor. Oh, wow.
Host:
Yeah. And that's, that's also something I think that develops over time, right? So as an advocate or as a licensed mental health professional, it's when do I push and knowing instinctively like, okay, now I'm being, I'm being given the runaround, I'm being avoided, you know, I have, I have to kind of lean a little hard and it's for the benefit of my client, right? It's, really just trying to be, be of service to them.
Andrew Gill:
That's right. Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
You know, we'll say this, that usually when I'm in that obnoxious mode, my obnoxiousness is not emotional. It is actually an obnoxiousness that is actually, you know, playing their procedures with their procedures.
Host:
It's like when an attorney gets pulled over by a policeman and they just start reciting the law, it's like, this is what's going to happen next. And then people realize like, he's got me. I got to, I kind of have to tend to the rule. Yeah. It's good advice. It's good advice. what, what do you feel? Let's say I was an advocate and I had a client that was suffering from a chronic condition that has quite a bit of pain and challenges.
Andrew Gill:
I let them go to their own conclusions on it. Yeah.
Host:
How would I go about referring them to someone like you? If they're in Texas, I would just refer them directly to you. And I don't know if you have the ability to practice outside of your state with telehealth, but who should they be looking for? How should they be kind of encouraging people to look for someone who is a specialist even in the therapeutic world, the mental health world that could help them with something like this?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, intake for any counselor can be very difficult in general. Are they accessible? Are they not accessible for that kind of work? So do they have availabilities to address crisis counseling as well? So if there's things that come up, will they be able to engage and collaborate on things?
So not everybody wants to do that as a counselor. In fact, a lot of counselors don't want to do that. So will they have the heart to advocate for you as a therapist even, work with other professionals? It's extra time. It's extra effort to put into these things. So I think that that's one of the things that you want to ask the therapist, right, is are they willing to help if I have a crisis? I think...
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Host:
Yeah.
Host:
Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
Usually something like psychology today will have chronic pain or chronic conditions as one of the topics. So you can search on psychology.
Host:
it's like a filter. like you, when you click on like specialties, chronic pain might be an option. That's good to know for people. Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, yep. I think so. I think it's really helpful because you can navigate that where they have a specialty in it. I think also people are looking for insurance. I mean, these are expensive things for, you know, dealing with medical issues and at a baseline, it's about cost, right? You know, am I able to afford the therapist, right? And so,
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Host:
Well, especially if it's going to be a long term relationship and you're seeing them every week. Yeah, I wouldn't because it's a chronic condition. It's not like you're going to come in three times and get some advice and go home, you
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, so in this is the challenging aspect is, you like I'm on traditional Medicaid and a lot of Medicaid managed care systems like Superior Health, Molina, you know, just, you know, on and on some of the managed care systems for Medicaid. So, you know, and that's where a lot of these, you know, needs are, is in this system. But there's not many clinicians, not many people want to take Medicaid, you know.
Host:
Yeah.
Andrew Gill:
So this becomes more difficult to find the right insurance panel and matches. So if I don't have their insurance panel, I won't be able to see them.
Host:
Why do you feel like so many clinicians are resistant to working with Medicaid? Is it just the extra work, the extra paperwork? Is it the reimbursement rates not being high enough? Is it all of it?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, I I would say I don't know their reasons. Those could be all the reasons. I would say I can tell you my reason for being on it. And it's because I started out working with more impoverished populations. And I'm not suggesting that this population is impoverished. I'm just saying that I saw that there was a need. And I really had a genuine desire to serve the need.
Host:
Okay.
Andrew Gill:
And I think that that's why I got onto Medicaid in general is because I don't think there is as many people doing it in our profession. And you hear a lot in our profession, it's important to advocate for people. It's important to advocate for mental health. And so I kind of felt it as like, it's not for everybody, but for me personally, I feel like that's something I can do for some people. I have a high level skill and they don't get that.
So put me on the panel and I may take a pay cut and I do. mean, the rates are way disproportionate from my private pay rate. But I take that because I think that there's also a duty in our profession to advocate for people.
Host:
the
Host:
Yeah, well, you walk the walk, that's for sure. Put your money where your mouth is and your time too, right?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, it may affect my finances, but you know, you know, maybe I get a crown in heaven or something.
Host:
Yeah, like the attitude. I think a lot of people get into this profession with the same attitude. It's like, well, yes, I mean, I want to live, but I also want to serve. If you're not called to serve as an advocate, as a clinician, then you kind of have to start wondering, well, what is the motivation? You know, you can, you can go be a Very true. Do you have any,
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, yeah, just become about money. Yeah, good point.
Host:
last words of advice or, mean, I don't know if your caseload is full and you're open to taking clients or if it's kind of a revolving door, but if someone wants to get in touch with you directly, do you want to kind of give a little bit of a heads up on how they could do that?
Andrew Gill:
Yeah, absolutely. yeah, I actually in Texas, I'm not licensed anywhere else. But you know, in Texas, I do telehealth. I am available currently. I think maybe in like three or four months, you know, there may be a shift on the occurs with new markets. But you know, I am available currently, taking new clients. And, you know, one of the nice things about my services that I have an online scheduler.
So, you know, once clients do make contact with me through email, then I usually try to screen their insurance or process things with them and get them into services and help them out. But yeah, think in general, you know, if you're in the DFW area, that's where I'm located, you know, here in Irving, Texas. yeah, I think that, you know, be more than willing to
Host:
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gill:
take anyone that's in need at this time.
Host:
How would they find you? you have a website or?
Andrew Gill:
Yes, so my website is tauhealingservices.com. It's T-A-U, healing services.com. And my email is tauhealingatgmail.com. That's again, T-A-U.
Host:
Andrew Gill, thank you so much for your time.
Andrew Gill:
Thank you, Jon.
